ANKARA - Emphasizing that the USA and Europe contributed to the deadlock of the Kurdish problem, US journalist Meghan Bodette suggested that the PKK should be considered as an interlocutor for a solution, saying, "They created such a problem that it is now out of control".

 

The regional and global disturbances created by Turkey, which is trying to suppress the Kurdish issue with military methods, draws the attention of the world public opinion. The military contributions of the USA and European countries to Turkey due to the alliance in the dimensioning of the Kurdish problem also ensured the continuation of the problem. US journalist Meghan Bodette, who closely follows Turkey's policies in the region and criticizes the contributions of western countries, especially the US, said that if the "out of control AKP-MHP government" is not stopped, it will cause more problems. Emphasizing that it is essential for the development of regional and global peaceful policy to remove the PKK from the "list of terrorist organisations", Bodette said, "The values ​​of the Kurdish Freedom Movement are not terrorism, they are literally the opposite of terrorism." We talked to the journalist Bodette, who did a lot of research on the Middle East and the Kurds and is well-versed in international law, about the external reflection of the Kurdish problem and ways to solve it. 

 

I want to start with your story. How did you meet the Kurds, what prompted you to research and write on this subject?

 

While studying International Relations at the university, I started to think about how to establish an alternative system to the existing system on the subjects of peace, freedom and democracy. The lessons at school were answering my questions through the existing system and that wasn't enough for me. It did not offer any alternative, it prevented us from considering the alternative. During this process, I met the Kurdish community in the city where I live. I saw how they resisted the difficulties, how they stood against the existing system and authoritarian regimes in Turkey and in the region. I watched how they were creating the new life they have developed against patriarchy, nationalism and all such harmful systems. This affected me a lot. I began to read more, to participate in their actions. Thus, I learned not only about the Kurdish struggle, but the struggle of many different people in the region to oppose such regimes, and also, as an American, the role of the US government in supporting these governments. It has been a very enlightening process for me. In Northern and Eastern Syria, especially in Rojava, they were fighting against ISIS and at the same time establishing a pluralist, diversity-based system, a system based on women's liberation and economic exploitation. This system was answering all the questions in my head. I decided to do my work in this direction and to be a voice for this struggle as much as I can.

 

 

 

 

How long have you been working on the Kurdish issue? What did you find out about the involvement of the USA, the European Union, in short, the West in this ongoing problem?

 

I have been working on the Kurdish question for more than three years. I can say that we can only evaluate this problem by thinking long-term. Let's go back to the 1950s when Turkey joined NATO. Turkey has thus become an ally of the United States, which in practice means that the United States has provided Turkey with large amounts of arms and security aid, not thinking twice about strengthening it militariliy and strengthening other authoritarian and nationalist elements of the state without considering the domestic impact of these policies. Because the US only considers its own geopolitical interest to strengthen its hand against its rivals and to ensure that its allies remain pro-Western. In this process, the United States began to provide billions of dollars in security aid to Turkey and transferred arms to Turkey. It thus contributed to the destruction of democratic politics and the artificial reinforcement of the military security order at the expense of the oppressed peoples. The nationalist and militarist elements of the state also became extremely willing partners of this system because they were also benefitting from this situation. While they had the financial resources to wage their own wars within the country, the USA kept the country on their side. They did not care in the least how this turned into an anti-democratic process and what kind of human rights violations it caused. This is directly linked to the Kurdish question. Because the biggest human rights crisis in Turkey is happening right there. Whenever the Kurds, as every oppressed people do, rose up for their basic rights, Turkey suppressed these justified rebellions with the weapons provided by the USA and with the military support of the USA and Europe contributed to these pressures as an ally of Turkey. This situation had very negative effects on the struggle for freedom and justice, and as a result, it turned the Kurdish problem from being a domestic problem into an international one. Because the pressure applied to oppress the Kurds is not only applied by Turkey. Many countries are supporting the governments of Turkey to put pressure on the communities fighting for their fundamental rights and freedoms.  

  

Can we say that the west used Turkey's hostility against Kurds to make Turkey depend on them?

 

In the 80's and 90's the conflict situation escalated and the state attacked the Kurds with all its violence. More than 4,000 villages were burned. More than 3 million people were displaced. There were enforced disappearances and extrajudicial executions. The Kurds were no longer the only community that was being targeted by Turkey. Turkish revolutionaries, workers, all minorities were targeted. The USA ruthlessly supported this process and made the Turkish government even more dependent on itself by pushing the Turkish government to seek a military and security solution to a problem that needed to be solved politically. Later, when ISIS emerged in 2014, which is directly related to foreign intervention in a country, the USA, Europe and other great powers finally realized that this problem has become a problem that concerns them as well.

 

So the wolf was at their door..

 

They saw that if they did not solve this problem, the brutality of ISIS would be at their doorstep and that they could carry out attacks in their own country. But in the process, they also realized this; their current allies were very reluctant to fight ISIS. We saw that the Iraqi army, which was established after the US invasion, fell apart in the face of ISIS. We saw how the Kurdistan Regional Government's peshmerga forces left Shengal to its fate and fled without looking back, and the disaster this situation created in the Yazidi society. Turkey, the primary ally of the USA, not only did not want to fight ISIS, but also supported ISIS by attacking the forces fighting ISIS. Readers in Turkey and Kurdistan already know this, but I would like to underline it for western readers: Currently, the People's Democratic Party (HDP) is on trial in Turkey, which called the government to do something against ISIS and protested against ISIS. All the HDP did was that they said to the government, 'You have to do something about this now,' while the Turkish government watched the jihadist fighters come and go through their borders as if there were no borders and advance to the Kurdish city of Kobanê.

 

You have followed that process on the ground. Can you tell us about your observations?

 

When I went to Kobanê, I saw that hill where foreign journalists were stationed. They stood there with their cameras set up, watching what was going on over the hill as ISIS advanced on Kobanê and Turkey did not intervene militarily. The most barbaric army was attempting genocide right before their eyes and they were watching what was happening like a movie. This situation elad to people taking to the streets in Turkey. People took to the streets and told the Turkish government, who was watching what was going on, just like the international press, to stop this massacre, and now they are being tried with very heavy prison sentences for this. At this point, the USA and Europe said, 'Yes, something needs to be done about this ISIS'. But Erdogan's government refused. This whole process has been well documented, even by the mainstream media outlets. As a result, when their main ally Turkey refused to intervene, USA turned to Kurds, the YPJ and the YPG, who are the only local force that truly resisted ISIS. Meanwhile, the world was sitting and watching the defeat of the Iraqi forces and the peshmerga against ISIS, leaving Shengal and fleeing. YPG and PKK came to the places where these forces fled, to protect the people. This situation caused a dilemma for the USA and Europe. Because the only force fighting against ISIS on the ground was the revolutionary Kurdish forces, but the same revolutionary Kurdish forces were also resisting Turkey's oppression and were declared terrorists for this reason. And Turkey was an ally of the USA and Europe. However, the rapid progress of ISIS frightened the westerners and made them feel threatened in their own country. And in fact, ISIS attacked Europe and America as well. So it was like a forced alliance. Both sides had something the other needed. The only local power that could fight ISIS, which no one wanted to fight, was the Kurds, and the international coalition was able to give the Kurds weapons and technology that no one wanted to give. This has resulted in some extremely complex dynamics that we are witnessing now.

 

 

 

There are contradictions on the ground as well..

 

While Turkey continues to be an important ally of the United States to Europe and NATO, and Turkey's security assistance and military support continues, people in these countries have also called their governments against the regime in Turkey. On the other hand, Turkey continues to support radical Islamist groups, and these countries that support Turkey also indirectly support an ISIS remnant organization such as the Syrian National Army. So there are many contradictions. But if you look at it from a broad perspective, the US and European governments created a problem by supporting the nationalist and militarist elements of the Turkish state, which is seeking a military solution to a problem that can be solved politically. The current name of this problem is the AKP-MHP government. They have created such a problem that it is now out of control and will likely cause even more problems, such as supporting jihadist and radical groups and invading other countries in the region. Therefore, long-term support to Turkey will continue to cause the crisis to deepen. The intersecting interests of most states against ISIS, both in the region and internationally, will have unintended consequences.

 

Because you studied international law, I want to ask, you mentioned the contradictions of the west. There is a campaign for the delisting of the PKK from the 'terror list'. What would the delisting of the PKK change?

 

It would change everything. And it is a campaign that I advocate myself. . I believe that the PKK cannot be legally defined as a 'terrorist organization' and should be removed from the list. First of all, if you look at, for example, at least the United Nations (UN) documents of the 60s, 70s and 80s, peoples living under foreign occupation conditions and those living under racist, authoritarian and nationalist regimes have the right to resist and it is guaranteed by international laws. This includes armed struggle. We saw this when people took up arms against the Nazis in Europe during World War II. We also saw this in the aftermath of the World War II when people took up arms against decolonisation in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Today, many peoples owe their freedom to taking up arms against foreign occupations, against fascist regimes and colonial domination. This is an established principle in international law. As you know, according to the outcome of the case in Belgium on the subject, it has decided that the PKK is not a terrorist organization, but a party to a non-international armed conflict. This is a very important decision. In this sense, when we look at the behavior model of the Kurdish Freedom Movement in the region, we do not see the behavior of a 'terrorist' group. They not only challenged authoritarian regimes and radical islamist reactionary groups militarily, they built a system based on the right of peoples to self-determination and created a brand new model for all peoples, especially women. What this movement has accomplished in a region where women are severely oppressed by these regimes is, in my personal opinion, the greatest achievement of the 21st century. In this sense, the values ​​of the Kurdish Freedom Movement are not terrorism, they are literally the opposite of terrorism. What is in question here is a group that resists and struggles against an oppressive regime, and resistance to such regimes is guaranteed by international laws. In this sense, as underlined in the Belgian decision, the PKK is not a terrorist group, but a party to a non-international armed conflict. It is a fact that the whole world now knows, that they took part in this war more than any foreign state involved in the fight against ISIS and paid a greater price for it. They fought on behalf of the whole world, with an organization the whole world was fighting against. This is not the behavior of a terrorist group. They are fighting a force that is clearly defined as the enemy and they are fighting for a clearly defined purpose.

 

 

 

What is the US definition of "terror" and can you compare this definition with the behavior of the Kurds? 

 

I have written quite a bit on this subject, especially on the definitions made by the USA. According to the US definition, for an organization to be defined as a terrorist organization, it must be a threat to US citizens. The same definition applies to Europe. On the other hand, the PKK did not attack the people of Europe, the USA or any other country. They are very clear about this. I remember, during Turkey's occupation of Serêkaniye and Tel Ebyad, then US President Donald Trump claimed that the PKK was a much more dangerous organization than ISIS. The PKK wrote an open letter to Trump. Most American citizens did not know that the force fighting ISIS on the ground were Kurdish forces. In the letter the PKK reminded when Erdogan came to the United States, Erdogan's security forces attacked the peaceful protesters who were exercising their right to peaceful protest in an American city and very close to the White House. This letter has enlightened the citizens of the USA in many ways. Because; An organization that has never been even near the US continent, has not attempted to attack the US at all, and has taken part as an ally of the US in the coalition established against ISIS, is referred to as a terrorist organization in the US, while this organization is not included in this list with the demand of the President of Turkey who attacked the US citizens, who exercised their right to a peaceful protest, in front of the White House. In this sense, we can say that listing an organization that fights for the people's right to self-determination and which never targeted the civilian population as a terrorist organization is simply absurd. On the other hand, Turkey targeted civilians in Shengal, Mahmur and Federated Kurdistan. It assassinated politicians and activists in foreign countries, for example, in Europe. It crashed all opposition with unprecedented methods domestically, detaining and arresting thousands of people. If such a regime tells us 'These are terrorists' for a group, I think as western countries we need to stop and think. 

 

 

 

So what does removing the PKK from the list means?

 

We can say that its political impact will be very important. This means that not only politicians, but also civil society and individuals will be freer. Not only in Turkey, but also in the west, people will have the opportunity to get to know the Kurdish movement better and listen to what they say, because in its current state, the press avoids writing about it, again not only in Turkey, but all over the world. The peoples of the world do not know who the Kurds are, what they do, what they want, what they are trying to tell. When these things become subjects that people can talk about, when people can easily access the resources, even this alone will change a lot. They will learn not only what they want, but also the accomplishments of these people in their own societies in the Middle East.  More importantly, they will know what has been done to this people under the guise of anti-terrorism. Every country where the PKK is currently on the terrorist list is partners in these crimes. But the people living in these countries do not know what kind of crime their country has committed. With the removal of the PKK from the terrorist list, these facts will be revealed and the PKK will become an official interlocutor. As long as the PKK is on the terrorist list, no matter which country it invades, such as no matter who and how many people Turkey arrests, when Turkey says, 'There are terrorists', the west will say, 'Oh, ok then'. Removing the PKK from the list will prevent this. These countries will then be able to question  what Turkey is doing. Not only countries, but as I just said, citizens of those countries will be able to learn more, question what Turkey is doing and pressure in their own countries. I would like to underline that this situation does not only concern the Kurds, but also all the peoples of Turkey now. Because Turkey is now targeting not only the Kurds, but also all communities, minorities and even the followers of Turkey's founding ideology, which has never been victimized in any administration before. In this sense, the delisting of the PKK is very important both morally, legally and politically. 

 

Then what needs to be done to make the people of the west to take action?

 

First of all a mass movement is needed. The people needs to be informed.  When you look at the mainstream media, the narratives usually come from the perspective of Turkey and its western allies. However, the situation on the ground is not at all as they say. There is one thing I remember very clearly. In 2018, I did a lot of field research in the regions occupied by Turkey, especially in Afrin. At that time, I met the Turkey correspondent of the New York Times there. Instead of talking to the local people who were affected by the occupation, or to the journalists working there, to journalists who came from Turkey, instead of finding and talking to the displaced people, she preferred talking to the people who supported the occupation. At that time, Turkey was organizing press tours for such journalists. Thus, people in America who learned about what was going on there by reading the New York Times were getting the news from that perspective and did not come to the conclusion that Turkey was committing any crime. According to the reporters of the New York Times who gathered news by participating in the press tours organized by Turkey, Turkey did not violate any international agreements. These journalist also did not know or did not report what Turkey was doing to the journalists within its borders. So one of the most important problems is the media. It is very important to follow the news from the right sources. In this sense, I would like to underline that I am honored to have spoken with the Mesopotamia Agency, which delivers the truth to the people under incredible pressure. You are an inspiration to all.

 

Thank you for your compliments. You were talking about the mass protests..

 

In other words, the first step is to find and follow the news from the local sources, to listen to the human rights organizations working in the field, to the journalists, and to the peoples affected by this invasion in Syria at first hand. And of course, there is a need for a very massive support system with very broad participation on a global scale. People need to protest this with actions in their own countries, put pressure on their own deputies, write letters to the news editors of their local newspapers and tell what is really going on. People need to take to the streets and show their presence. I am saying this for my country first and foremost. Because the USA is a partner in Turkey's relentless perpetration of these innumerable crimes. It tolerates and allows these crimes to be committed. Here in October 2019, we had the opportunity to observe very clearly how the press changes a lot. As I mentioned before, in that process, the PKK wrote an open letter addressing Trump. It was the first time that people had any real information about what was actually happening. There were also a lot of photos and videos in social media coming from the ground. I saw that the participation in the demonstrations increased a lot those days because the people were finally aware of how US supported Turkey, who attacked the forces that were fighting ISIS, therefore supporting ISIS.

The American people thought that this was not in line with the American values ​​they had been taught, they saw a wrong policy, they were convinced that crimes were committed in their name and without their knowledge, and they took to the streets to tell their government that they could not do it. Every group, every community needs to be organized among themselves, to enable more people to participate and to be informed, and of course the press needs to be free. 

 

 

 

Another subject on the agenda is the arms sales of West to Turkey..

 

Arms sales and security aid to Turkey must end immediately. In this sense, it is possible to say that we have seen more momentum in the West recently. The destabilization created by Turkey in the Middle East and the fact that the West is tolerating this situation is now here for all to see. Turkey continues to attack other countries and terrorize the most oppressed peoples. These peoples are not only Kurds. Turkey oppresses the Yazidis, Armenians.. Turkey is now targeting the minorities that it has subjected to many massacres and assimilation in the past again. It will be an important step to draw attention to arms sales and to continue to make these calls to western states and to strengthen the organisation in this sense. Because without foreign support, there would be no way to attempt to resolve this issue militarily, when it can be resolved politically. It is very important to be in solidarity with the peoples who resist this regime. It is necessary to be in solidarity with journalists like yourself and to stay in touch with groups like HDP, other progressive democratic forces, groups that are tried to be crushed by the brutal repression of the Erdogan regime and subjected to mass arrests. The same goes for people who are exposed to Turkey's persecution outside Turkey's borders. The same is true for Northern and Eastern Syria, Federated Kurdistan, which Erdogan bombs every day. We have to inform everyone around us about the facts and be ready to take action at any time. Because the cost of not knowing about this is people's lives. In this sense, we can say that the situation is a matter of life and death.  

 

Going back to your days in Rojava, what can you say about the life being built there?

 

It was an incredible experience. What struck me most was how much people suffered from economic deprivation, years of living under an authoritarian government, and the constant threat that it could be invaded by another authoritarian regime. Despite all this, people were constantly working to establish a new life without getting tired or afraid, and they are extremely determined. I was lucky enough to see almost all major cities. I met Kurds, Yazidis, Assyrians and Arabs in cities such as Kobanê, Qamishlo, Manbij and Raqqa. All of them told me how they tried to build a life in this conflict as much as they could while fighting against ISIS and resisting the Turkish invasion. They all said that what I saw at that moment was just the beginning, that the revolution was not yet complete. It was very impressive for me to see with my own eyes the thing we call 'revolution'. It seems even more incredible when you consider the conditions under which they did all this. Without ignoring what's really going on, that people out there still face very serious problems, I saw that everyone is ready to make sacrifices, work hard and sacrifice their own life for this new life, and I have full faith that they will establish that free life. 

 

Can you tell us about your observations about the women's movement? What can you say when you compare the Kurdish women's movement with western feminism?

 

This is a great question. I've thought a lot about this and talked a lot with the women in the region. Yes, there is a feminism with a very long history in the West, and there are very important gains made by the labor and struggle of thousands of women who are now dead, and they are very, very valuable. But many western women today see these gains as a guarantee and prefer to remain indifferent to what's going on rather than keep moving forward. They forget the existence of women who are still being oppressed all over the world. Even though the Kurdish women's movement embraces these gains, they are making an effort to move forward and develop these gains. They are not satisfied with what has already been earned, they rely on their own strength.  For example, I met with a women's organization called the Zenobiya Women's Confederation in Raqqa. These women are like an umbrella organization of all autonomous women's councils in the recently liberated Arab majority regions of Northern and Eastern Syria. They formed their own organization because they felt that they were a culturally different than most places in the region, and therefore had slightly different problems. They organized literacy classes and even childcare classes for women who were denied the right to receive an education. They did this to raise their children right while exercising their newly acquired right to work and be outside the home. This women's organization I mentioned is in Raqqa, which is known as the stronghold of ISIS. Can you believe this?  It has been a very short time since ISIS was removed from this city. These women, who did not even have the right to leave the house a few years ago, are currently working on drafting new laws that guarantee women's rights. They are building their own political forces, joining Local Self-Defense Forces, YPJ, SDF. In doing so, they are not only changing their own culture and environment, but also providing an organized support system for all women in their communities. 

 

 

 

 

Can this rapid change be explained by theory?

 

Seeing such a radical change in a very short time is not like reading theories from books. Every woman knows that they have to work harder, there is still a long way to go and the male-dominated system will not be destroyed overnight. A social contract is currently being written in Northern and Eastern Syria. The committee that drafted this convention consists of equal numbers of men and women. This has not happened in any of our societies. Neither the USA nor Europe asked any woman while the constitution was being written. Something very advanced, unprecedented, and very exciting is happening here. The women in this committee not only take part in the drafting of the bill, but also exchange views with all women's organizations and women's institutions in the region and receive their suggestions. They are preparing this bill in a way that will guarantee women's rights in the strongest way possible. Even this situation itself is a result of the social organization I mentioned. They are creating social change by equipping women with stronger laws, asking them, understanding what they need, in regions where the population was too conservative to accept all this before. Right now, not many people really know what's going on there, but soon western women will realize that they can learn a lot from the Kurdish women's liberation movement. I want to be with them and work with them to establish this connection. Because women in Northern and Eastern Syria want to tell their story, they want to share what they have learned with other women and they want to hear the stories of those women. This system, created by the Kurdish women, will turn the women's movement into an umbrella organization all over the world. 

 

You are the founder of the project called “The Lost Women of Afrin”. Can you tell us a little about this project and its results so far? 

 

So working on this, there have been hundreds of use cases and also what I do for the missing Afrin women project is I track reports from local human rights organizations and news outlets, as well as sources who I'm able to talk to on the ground. So because of the complete media blackout on these regions that prohibits any information coming out. That doesn't go through pro Turkish Government or pro Syrian opposition channels. It's difficult to see the full picture. But from the reports I've found there have been over 200 of these cases, since the occupation of Afrin for the year 2021. As of October there had been 32 cases. With the missing Afrin women project, we will put out a 2021 report. In the first 10 months of the year there had been 22 of those individuals who remained missing, whereas 10 had reportedly been released. And so what we saw earlier this year was a lower rate of kidnappings and disappearances than there had been in previous years. But in the second half of the year that has unfortunately mostly escalated. Yesterday it was reported that a young university student was kidnapped along with her father while she had been returning to a friend from Aleppo, where she had been studying. The kidnapping of multiple members of the same family and even entire families at the same time is something that's very common. And what happens with these incidents, whoever the targets may be, men, women children, are either usually one of two or three different things. Some are kidnappings for ransom. A large percentage of the cases where the individuals are taken by an armed group and then given back to their family when their family pays that armed group. This is a source of revenue for these groups in addition to other forms of looting and theft and extortion of the local population, and this is also something that is a form of severe persecution of the local population due to the economic crisis in Syria, the amount of money that these groups demand for people to get their loved ones back is sometimes more than these families can afford. So this, not only is a traumatic experience for the people who are taken, for the families who are separated from their relatives, but it can also completely financially destroy a family. They may have to sell their home or other valuable possessions in order to simply get the money to give to the militia to get their relatives back. So that happens in many cases. In other cases, people turn out to be  imprisoned and transferred to Turkey. We've seen documentation of this from groups like Syrians for Truth and Justice and Human Rights Watch, looking at SDF and YPG prisoners of war, who were taken during the war. They are not Turkish citizens or they have never fought in Turkey and Turkey has no jurisdiction over there so these are illegal arrests. And it also violates the Geneva Convention and other international conventions. And those abducted and arrested are not only fighters but also civillians. They are sometimes sent to Turkey or held in black site detention centers. There are reports of rape and sexual violence and torture in many of these cases. The UN made some calls about this as well. But they did not follow through and Turkey did not take it seriously. 

 

Will you share your report with the relevant institutions in Turkey's ally USA and EU?

 

Certainly. In addition to these, we will share it with all international human rights organizations, non-governmental organizations and the press. We will do everything we can to ensure that this information is known by relevant bodies, and we will knock on all doors so that those responsible for these crimes are held accountable. 

 

MA/ Gözde Çağrı Özköse